Discover Ginger and Chocolate Podcast

Lindsay (00:00.0)

Hi there and welcome to the ginger and chocolate podcast. My name is Lindsay. I'm a Gen X women of color and an accounting nerd. my cohost Mike is a millennial. He's a former Marine and he's a veterans counselor, but he can't make it today. So it's just me solo. You just have chocolate today. do you want to know what we have in common? We both have mental health challenges and we share a love of endurance sports. 

Lindsay (00:30.9)

or I'll say an obsession with endurance sports. let's see, today we have an amazing guest. She's my girlfriend and she's my teammate and her name is Michelle. And welcome Michelle, how's it going? 

Michele (00:45.644)

Good, thank you. Thanks for this invite and opportunity. 

Lindsay (00:47.416)

Awesome. 

Lindsay (00:50.004)

Of course, of course. I'm surprised we didn't get you on earlier. I think maybe I just didn't schedule it right and so I'm really, really glad that you made time for me now. Okay, you're here to talk to me about a bunch of things, but mostly about the fact that you do really, really long ass races and whatnot and challenges and I think it's amazing. Not anything I could do, but something that I'm really, really amazed by. 

Lindsay (01:19.606)

So I think the first thing I want to talk about a little bit is just how you got into endurance sports to begin with. 

Michele (01:28.118)

Yeah, so it all began around my senior year of high school when I did an Outward Bound course and learned about endurance and multi -sport. And then when I started in the arena, even on that event, we had a beach run on soft sand and I was the last to take off. but then I caught people, overtook people who bonked on the way. 

Michele (01:52.637)

And I realized, well, I might not podium, but I like you. I can go the distance. So, yeah. 

Lindsay (02:00.526)

So you're saying you realized early that you are more of a long distance than a short fast person. Okay, that makes sense. I was naturally born a short fast person and now that I'm older I'm not fast either. So I'm just short now and slow, but whatever. 

Michele (02:12.855)

and 

Michele (02:19.45)

No, disagree knowing you as a teammate. We all have potential. 

Michele (02:23.218)

We just have to work harder as we age to get it. 

Lindsay (02:26.446)

That's so true, that is so true. So I know that you started all of this a long time ago, obviously, not hinting at your age or anything, but just saying, you know, probably about 30 years, according to listening to you talk and kind of what you've told me about yourself. And so that's a long, long career. How long did you do, I'll say, quote unquote, regular endurance sports, meaning Ironman distance or less before you decided to do an ultra? 

Michele (02:57.292)

That's like which came first the chicken or the egg? Because I went from sprint to Ironman using a little training plan out of a journal that I saw. 

Lindsay (03:10.126)

So let me just interrupt there and just say for people who might be listening and don't know what she's talking about, although not totally sure who those people are, because we talk a lot about endurance sports on here, but she means she did a sprint triathlon, which doesn't have a set distance, but it's really short. Whatever it is, whatever the little distance they put together, it's very, very short. So tiny short swim, a five, like a, maybe a 10 mile bike or something, like a 5k really short. 

Lindsay (03:39.534)

The next race she did was an Ironman, which is a 2 .4 mile swim, 112 mile bike ride, and a full marathon. So you can see there's a lot of distance in between those two, and there are races that you can do in between those two, but Michelle felt like, you know, fuck it, I'm just gonna go for the big guy. Okay, so you did that, and how long ago was that? 

Michele (03:59.601)

Well, I had a training plan 

Michele (04:00.744)

and I thought, I can do that. Swim and then ride and swim and then bike. And yeah, my longest bike at the time was my Ironman bike. think I was I was in South Africa. So and this was during the 90s and I was part of a local running club. So I was running. But in terms of which came first, the Ironman or 

Michele (04:26.012)

the first ultra, that was a bit blurry for me. started trying to do some history yesterday and I couldn't quite put it all together. So, I, yeah, it was all around the mid 90s time. So yeah. 

Lindsay (04:34.232)

Haha 

Lindsay (04:42.348)

Yeah, sounds good. Let's see, what was I doing in the 90s, mid 90s? I was having children. Another form of endurance sport. So what was your first ultra distance? And let me ask you a question before that just to define, you know, what is ultra distance? If you can say what qualifies versus what doesn't qualify for ultra distance. 

Michele (04:48.31)

There we go. Yes, exactly. 

Michele (05:06.424)

Just to confuse things, I grew up in South Africa where everything's metric versus the US, which is imperial. So ultra distance is anything more than, in terms of running, is anything more than a marathon. So 50K is 30 miles. And then generally I was doing trail running. I did a couple of... 

Michele (05:31.32)

ultra -distance trail runs that are now actually I did paved and trail. So they were both around the 50k mark mid 50k mark so 30 to 35 mile mark. One was the two oceans marathon which is beautiful on the tip of Africa in Cape Town and you run along the Indian Ocean and then run along the Atlantic Ocean. So it's really beautiful it's around April every year. 

Michele (06:00.28)

around I again in the mid 90s I or late 90s I did my first road hundred mile run which was very special between two cities called the washy 100 yeah 

Lindsay (06:14.238)

amazing I can't even I can't even imagine I can't imagine a road anything it's so much harder on the joints but so I don't know anything about actually hold on a second my dog has decided to come in here and that like two feet away is where she's gonna groom herself I'm just gonna step away for two seconds and move her away I don't know what she's thinking but I'll be right back 

Michele (06:35.266)

That's fine, I love doggies, so... 

Michele (06:39.505)

Makes it real! 

Lindsay (07:10.146)

Mike will cut that part out. So that's good. We often have to deal with his dogs and sometimes we leave it in, but this was a long one. Okay. Alrighty. Thanks for waiting, Michelle. I had to take a quick break to deal with the dogs and we are in Lake Tahoe. So I have no space to myself basically. So the dogs are right here enjoying the podcast recording. So I don't know anything about the terrain in South Africa, but I... 

Lindsay (07:38.744)

Like most Americans, know nothing and I picture all of Africa being like hot with, and dusty with wild animals. So is that, is that the terrain? What was the terrain like when you ran these first like Trail Ultra? 

Michele (07:53.964)

The trails were in the mountains, so very similar to Tahoe area. Yeah, so they were dusty and hot. It was winter time. 

Michele (08:06.642)

So there was a bit of snow on the mountains and things like that, but not like northern Minnesota in February or something. Because I've done winter ultras there too, but yeah, so it's more like dusting on the tops and yeah, you didn't just trail shoes and maybe an extra layer or something. 

Lindsay (08:17.964)

God. 

Lindsay (08:21.559)

oof 

Lindsay (08:33.118)

All right, so I've heard that and I know from my own personal experience that sometimes you know your mind wants to give up before your body has to give up and That's something that I experience it much shorter distances that what you do sometimes even on a team You know challenge. I'm like, my mind is like I don't want to do it. Why am I doing it? Why am I out here? What's point and So just wondering if you experience this kind of thing and if you do kind of how you 

Lindsay (09:02.914)

deal with it, talk yourself out of it, or whatever, what have you. 

Michele (09:07.608)

So for listeners that experience this, first thing, one of the first major lessons I learned to manage this was food. Eat. When your mind goes down, usually your blood sugar's on a lower side. Doesn't mean you're on blood sugar low, but you're in a deficit of calories, whatever. Usually within eating 200 calories within 10 minutes, you're starting to feel like the world's a better place. 

Michele (09:34.92)

So and then you break it down. Okay, it's just about getting to the next checkpoint or focus on form and Work with your mind. It's not you're not working against your mind like when the Iron Man Sacramento a few years ago had that terrible wind I Realized I've got two shoulders. So when I'm thinking I can't go anymore. I can't pedal any faster What's the other and what are you doing? And why are you so slow? What's the other shoulder telling you? 

Michele (10:04.626)

Okay, so then you just say wrong number, redial, and I found that extremely helpful. Okay, you're doing the best you can just keep moving. Anything's better than nothing. and we all thrive on encouragement of one sort or another. So it's finding what you would say to others that have what you've said to others what that have been helpful or what others have said to you that have been helpful. And you know, the 

Michele (10:34.442)

team coach we have who's fantastic at just planting one or two words in our brains that we can really anchor onto in times of distress or trouble. 

Lindsay (10:46.67)

Yep. For those of you who don't know, Tim Sheeper is our coach and he's a very mellow dude, very experienced, really amazing athlete and gives us really good advice, but also his aura and demeanor is very calming. So channeling Tim is probably a very good idea and one that I had not thought of until you just said it. So all these 14 years I've been knowing you guys, I've never thought. 

Lindsay (11:13.88)

Let me just channel the Tim Schiepper energy. I've always just kind of thought like, just keep going, you know. Okay, so I want to talk a little bit about your current, because you know, if we're talking the 90s, you're much younger then. I think we're around the same age. I don't know. I'm in my early, I'm in my mid 50s, early to mid 50s. Okay. So there's a lot of different body things happening, at least to me. I don't know about you, but it's kind of. 

Michele (11:42.925)

Yeah. 

Michele (11:43.158)

Lindsay (11:43.522)

I'm like, ugh, some of it's okay, some of it not great. So over the course of your career, how have you dealt with injuries and just the change in body? I mean, we're all marching towards old age and I'm just curious about how you've managed to stay healthy enough to continue to do these things. 

Michele (12:08.3)

Well, 

Michele (12:09.994)

I think as we age, we need to work harder at our agility, mobility and strength. So I don't know, a years ago, I started CrossFit probably during the pandemic or just before the pandemic because strength becomes more important as we age. Everything becomes more important. Even like generally athletes who've been doing this for a long time, age with a lot of aerobic base. 

Michele (12:40.711)

and so the anaerobic is what starts sliding the fastest and needs the most work and I learned this 

Michele (12:51.128)

I think I've had a lesson this season that you cannot stop anaerobic. You have to prioritize it almost over the aerobic as we age, the 50s and the 60s. We are seeing on the arena that 50, 60, 70 year olds are still podiuming and 80 year olds and doing Ironmans. And how are they doing it? It's because they're prioritizing mobility, agility. 

Michele (13:16.428)

the yoga, the stretching and the strength. And you have to build it up incrementally, slowly each day. 

Lindsay (13:26.702)

So it sounds like you do sort of a daily, do you have a routine or do you just try to weave in classes or how do you sort of make sure you're getting it all in? 

Michele (13:35.69)

it's hard but up until now i've been weaving it all in and i'm realizing this summer i had a breakthrough and realized no you can't weave it all in you have to be if i want to keep doing this i have to be strategic and have a plan and my to do strength strength in the morning and then stretch in the evening and maybe it's a bit of strength and stretch but the thing about doing 

Michele (14:02.696)

rich in the evening it helps the body wind down and prepare for sleep rather than in the morning you're generally strongest from your sleep. 

Lindsay (14:11.662)

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I worked with someone who was really putting me on the strength and mobility path just like 10 minutes each every day. We're not talking a lot. And when I was doing it, and I'm gonna be honest, I haven't been doing it lately and I feel the effects, but when I was doing it, it was really like, wow. First of all, my lats engaged when I was swimming, which I hadn't had those. 

Lindsay (14:41.388)

I was like, I actually do have muscles there. Hmm. And then the other thing is just like you're saying the wind down my body, feeling good, going to bed, feeling good, waking up. And I have some sort of, and I know other people have this too, some sort of mental block where I just want to drop that. Like I feel the benefits. I acknowledge the benefits. And yet I want to just drop it and just do just the run or just the ride. 

Lindsay (15:08.248)

I'm not sure what that is. Have you experienced that too or are you pretty even across? 

Michele (15:15.07)

No, I'm big time aerobic junkie and social athlete. And so it is hard. And I think, you know, we are all social beings. are made to be inter not. 

Michele (15:30.252)

dependent on one another, but interdependent and kind of bless one another and uplift, encourage one another. So accountability partners with a friend is hugely helpful. So don't be surprised if you get an email saying, Hey, let's work out together. Because it just, it just helps me do it. You do it. We both benefit. can keep going with our independent busy lives, but the benefits. Yeah. And actually I saw a 

Lindsay (15:46.126)

Sure. 

Michele (16:00.492)

square the other day a pictogram of happiness and the four quadrants of happiness and exercise is a different quadrant but social interactions is also a different quadrant so you and you need all four quadrants it's like the serotonin the oxytocin and all that stuff 

Michele (16:17.892)

But it was, you know, so there are multiple benefits of just getting on Zoom with a friend. I'm a faculty at a university. And so I tell my students, don't study alone. There's a time to study alone, but there's a time to get on Zoom and help one another. So, yeah. 

Lindsay (16:35.704)

Yeah, that makes sense. And speaking of having a job, tell me a little bit about what you do and how you get the training all in while you're also being a grown up and supporting yourself. 

Michele (16:51.958)

Well, that's the challenge we all face, I think, in various forms, depending on our careers. So I'm in healthcare as an RN and faculty, got my doctorate. you just, up until now, I've been weaving it in. 

Michele (17:10.571)

and healthcare allows that flexibility, especially teaching. But I think, you know, my mantra is work hard, play hard. So sometimes I'm up until later than I should be, but we make it happen and try and use rest days on the days that you're working long or yeah, because rest and recovery and sleep are huge. 

Lindsay (17:34.104)

Yeah. 

Lindsay (17:37.294)

pretty amazing. I'm a little bit weak in that area. like, if I don't get eight hours of, or if I'm not in, I never get eight hours of sleep. I don't sleep well. That's probably part of the thing. And then on that topic, you know, that is something that I struggle with in terms of getting the ability to just sort of get fit is I feel like sleep is a big component and I don't. 

Lindsay (18:03.086)

I haven't, since I've gotten into my 50s, I haven't done that very well. Like I just, I'll be in bed for nine hours and I'll sleep for like five and a half. And so are you someone who has a routine to go to sleep or are you sort of, you just alluded to the fact that you don't always go on time. Are you someone who just doesn't, it doesn't affect you or kind of where are you with the sleep at this stage in your life? 

Michele (18:26.54)

Definitely work in progress. share the similar struggles to you. I've adopted, I've been working on it for a couple of years now. And I think also for listeners, if you feel fresh and ready for the day, great, then you know you're sleeping well. Don't get hung up on sleep. But again, back to our team coach. 

Michele (18:48.42)

Tim Sheeper who came up with a line or a phrase of nine by nine. So get nine hours of sleep. What was it? In bed by nine between nine and ten. Try to get nine hours of sleep at least nine days a month. You know, then that's and I think I added the latter because our lives are so crazy that if I get nine, that's a third of the month basically that you're getting good quality sleep. You can do that once or twice a week. 

Michele (19:16.952)

that's better than just having nothing to base, no structure and just going to bed whenever. So I do try to go between nine and 10. Doesn't always happen. Yeah. 

Lindsay (19:29.806)

Yeah. 

Michele (19:31.808)

And then it's something I want to also for any listeners, Stacey Sims is a big, I follow her and I think a lot of people do, but if listeners haven't read her book Level Up and seen her podcasts and her literature, she's a female physiologist that has a lot of principles of likable for males too. But she introduced me to the whole concept of using a supplement enzyme called L -theanine. And that's helpful to keep one asleep. Just, yeah. 

Lindsay (20:02.67)

Say the name of that again. 

Michele (20:03.778)

Yeah, it's available over the counter at Safeway L -theanine, L -thea and then nine, L -theanine. So that's definitely, and it doesn't have any effects. It's not like melatonin. It's totally different. 

Michele (20:18.456)

For those that take melatonin, try the melatonin with vitamin B6 added to it, also available at Safeway or any of the grocery outlets. But that also stops the drowsiness and the fogginess in the morning with melatonin alone. It's two little tips I've discovered for myself. 

Lindsay (20:36.348)

that's good to know because I have taken melatonin but I didn't realize about the basics because I would be so drowsy in the, you know, in the morning that I was like, well, I might as well just be tired. I mean, you know what I mean? I might as well just take my chances. 

Michele (20:48.556)

Yeah, yeah. No, it's 

Michele (20:51.838)

been a lifesaver for me. In fact, Europe, when I ran out of melatonin, that's all they sell is melatonin with B6. So, yeah. 

Lindsay (21:01.268)

that's good to know. Alright, I'm gonna try that. And I'm also gonna try the thing that Stacey Sims, I really like her and her advice has been good to me. I read Roar and took a lot away from that, so. 

Michele (21:15.055)

you need to re -level up. It's incredible. It's specifically for our age group. Yeah. Yeah. 

Lindsay (21:17.166)

Okay, I haven't tried that. ooh, 

Lindsay (21:22.184)

okay. Well, if you're listening and you're like, our age, Level Up by Stacey Sims, really like that. I can put that in the show notes too so you guys can see that. So, one of the things that I really wanted to talk about is this year, 2024, and your... 

Lindsay (21:42.006)

Ultra Distance challenges that you've set for yourself this year and I want to hear about the different races and then get a recap of how it's going. So what did you decide to this year? 

Michele (21:53.816)

This year became a big bigger year than planned. I had a bucket list of doing a trail run series called the Triple Crown of 200s, which is three 200 mile trail runs. was a deferred from about 2021 era because at that time someone women for try became bigger and wanted more females getting to Ironman World Championships. And that was a goal of mine. 

Michele (22:24.523)

So I got it deferred for two years and 

Michele (22:31.448)

So this year was the year I needed to do it. I'd done one of their series. So the Triple Crown of 200s is 200 miles around Lake Tahoe, 200 miles in Washington State called Bigfoot. It's in the mountains, these cascades around Mount St. Helens area. And 240 miles around Utah and Moab. And so I'd done Moab. I ended up in a helping in 

Michele (23:01.424)

rescue when I did Bigfoot a few years ago. completed, so that was, and then I completed Tahoe this year and we'll come back to the rest. So this year was the year for the Triple Crown and then 

Michele (23:18.653)

I qualified in Arizona Ironman for a slotted Ironman World Championships in Europe this year and then I had another Ironman planned for this year. So yeah, this is going to be a big year. 

Lindsay (23:31.406)

Jeez. 

Lindsay (23:36.022)

Well, that's all. Good Lord. So, okay. Let's start with the Ultra Distance races, the Triple Crown of 200s. Tell us what you've done so far and how it's been going. 

Michele (23:39.221)

Yeah, kind of, so... amongst the training. 

Michele (23:53.226)

Okay, so, had a fantastic time at Tahoe. It's quite a lot of elevation and we got it done again, but back of the pack, but we got it done, which was great. I had some amazing team support from the triathlon team. Various people paced me and just made it even more fun than usual. So that was really special to share the journey with them and a big shout out. Yeah. 

Lindsay (24:19.534)

Can I ask a question about that really 

Lindsay (24:21.408)

quickly? About the pacing? Just because I think myself included, I am aware that you can have pacers, but what is the deal? Like when can they do it? How long can they do it? Kind of what happens with the pacing? 

Michele (24:37.4)

and the psychological benefits of pacing. So each race is different about pacing. So for the Tahoe 200, we could have paces from mile 67 because of desolation wilderness and the restoration area that they're doing after the major fires. We couldn't do the whole way around the lake. So we did an out and back, 30 miles out, 30 miles back from Heavenly. And then we went Heavenly to Tahoe City and back and that 

Lindsay (24:40.29)

Yeah. 

Michele (25:04.92)

was probably 140 miles or 135 or something so we could have paces once we'd done the 60 mile out and round trip and then we could have paces at certain checkpoints so you can't have a pacer in the middle of the trail can i run with you no you have to it's all planned who's pacing you when you can have one pacer or five paces so kim fredes was an amazing 

Michele (25:34.906)

crew chief extraordinaire along with Jenna Holden who was also just a logistician and the two of them worked phenomenally and then I had Doug Fuji who's a long -time triathlete who paced me I think two nights and was extraordinary or would always say are you eating every 15 minutes what have you eaten 

Lindsay (25:36.664)

Mm 

Michele (25:58.096)

And then he just get into my crazy psychological mode and play the psychological games with me. It was really fun. Then another athlete who did two other nights, because you generally you have about a hundred hours to finish these things. Maybe he did one night. Corey was amazing. 

Lindsay (26:12.28)

Okay. 

Lindsay (26:16.489)

yeah, yeah. 

Michele (26:18.845)

I called him Run Rabbit Run because he would keep an eye on me and then he'd go up the trail and I couldn't see him and then I'd just be plodding along and then I'd see him and eventually I just said, okay, Run Rabbit Run because I knew he'd just, and he'd take off like a rabbit. He'd just run up the trail and then he came back with all these amazing photos. He's amazing with fauna and yeah. 

Lindsay (26:25.912)

you 

Michele (26:44.642)

and different types of plants. He's incredible to knowledge and capturing on photos. So it made it really, really fun. Yeah, and then various other people, another woman, Richell, got me through the last night when I was completely delirious because I didn't have enough sleep during the event. 

Lindsay (26:53.208)

That's awesome. 

Lindsay (27:05.198)

So that's okay. So I've heard that people can hallucinate and become a little delirious, but I've heard that over like 100 miles, that's much shorter timeframe. Do you sleep during the 200 miler? mean, do you pull over and stop? What is that? Is it specific places or wherever you feel like? How does that work? 

Michele (27:26.424)

That's 

Michele (27:26.702)

wherever you feel like people who do 200 miles is, and even on the hundred milers, you become very good at trail maps. If you see a rock that talks to you, that's a nice big flat and in the sun you might have a trail or a nice grassy patch that's in the sun. You might have a trail map right there, depending how long you've been going for. Some people are better at going through the first night without sleep. 

Michele (27:49.714)

It just depends if you're with a buddy and keeping one another awake and enjoying the stars then you don't necessarily but if you're on your own and You're on a cliff face and you can't afford to fall then it might be better to find somewhere and have a proper nap so you can get be fresh and alert and safe the whole thing's about safety and You there are certain checkpoints they'll have some cots 

Michele (28:18.264)

on the 200 miles or specifically destination trail runs is very, very well organized events. And so that specific checkpoints, they'll have cots, but cots at checkpoints can be a little bit noisy. You have to be really disciplined with mask and earplugs and things like that. So, yeah. So you just pace it, yeah. 

Lindsay (28:43.118)

How long is a trail nap? Like how long do you, if you do one, how long is that? 

Michele (28:46.808)

It can be generally more of a 10 minute nap here or there unless I sleep best in a vehicle where it's quiet at the check at the checkpoint because then you check in, go to your vehicle, sleep, check out and move on. And then I'll generally sleep for an hour. And that's what I was doing with Race Across America. I'd have an hour between two and five in the morning. 

Michele (29:15.092)

and generally you get up and pee after, I generally get up and need to use the bathroom after an hour so then once you're up you go. 

Lindsay (29:23.015)

Wow, that's amazing and about the hallucination thing people say is that is it actual hallucinations or are you just kind of out of it or how does I mean how do you experience that? 

Michele (29:34.816)

Yeah, how do I experience it? Everyone experiences it differently. I generally don't have bad, scary hallucinations. I might see the trees as bears or soldiers or whatever and they create it. They find for me, I was like, that looks like this to me sort of thing. And that can be a result of lack of sleep or too much sugar. Sugar can help you hallucinate even when you're not tired. So that's just FYI. 

Lindsay (29:59.927)

Really? 

Michele (30:04.253)

I had really bad delirium on the... and it wasn't really bad, it was just more unpleasant for me because I knew I was delirious, I didn't feel like I was in touch with reality on the last night. So for my pacer I'd say, hey can I hold your hand? Just to kind of be like, okay, it's okay Michelle, you're not losing it completely. 

Lindsay (30:16.919)

Bye! 

Lindsay (30:29.656)

tethered 

Lindsay (30:30.092)

a little bit to reality. 

Michele (30:31.679)

Yeah, it just anchored 

Michele (30:33.119)

me. It anchored me to reality. But yeah, there was possibly low glucose there as well as sleep deprivation. On that one, on Tahoe, I'd only had one hour of proper sleep and I took like these 10 minute little naps, which your body gives your body a chance to reset and get the blood back to the heart and the brain a bit, but it doesn't give you the restorative sleep. 

Lindsay (30:58.03)

That's pretty amazing. I think it sounds like beyond having the slow twitch muscles or whatever that allows someone to go long, seems like the ability to function on a certain level without sleep, without prolonged sleep is also a key skill that someone has to have. Some of us just don't have it. So, okay, so that was Tahoe. You finished, you got through a little. 

Lindsay (31:27.628)

little untethered for a minute on the very end of it, but you did fine and you finished. And then, so what's the next race? 

Michele (31:35.096)

So then Bigfoot in Washington state was in early August, earlier this month. Unfortunately, my body decided I hadn't, there were a number of factors and my quadricep tendon went pop after mile 32. And yeah, quite unusual for a quadricep tendon to pop, snap like that. 

Lindsay (31:59.528)

Tell me where that 

Lindsay (32:00.284)

is exactly. 

Michele (32:01.58)

Your quadricep tendon is your big part of your big thigh muscle. It's like one of the biggest tendons in your body. So and it attaches to your knee cap. So your patella and so that is responsible for weight bearing and extending, stepping, everything. If you don't, if you can't bend your knee, then you're moving from your hip and then your gait's all uneven. 

Lindsay (32:13.645)

Okay. 

Michele (32:30.526)

So I was lucky that there was another racer who heard me shriek and when it went pop and when I didn't respond she came up and then we got myself back up on the whole hiking poles to see if I could move forward and then I buckled again and then she said right my name is Dawn and I'm an orthopedic physician assistant with 

Michele (32:57.016)

10 years of experience and emergency wilderness experience and you're off this trail and yeah. she taped me a yeah, talk about miracles. We used my Iron Man tape that I had bought with me as an emergency first aid and some other people's emergency first aid tape and she took my t -shirt and made an incredible bandage of it. 

Lindsay (33:04.984)

Wow, of all the people to be there. 

Michele (33:22.872)

and stabilized me and then got some other athletes to help me down the rocky sections of the trail and then I was able to use my hip on the flatter sections with my poles and keep my leg immobilized. Well then she had a Garmin Enreach and because we were up and over trees this trail's got a lot of fallen trees it's thick thick forest and so we'd in 32 miles probably done 100 trees up 

Lindsay (33:34.498)

just to get to the next point. 

Lindsay (33:46.072)

you 

Michele (33:50.976)

shimmering over them, under them, and they can be a chest height or yeah, thick forest. And so we found a trail that was a mile to a road that was off the main race trail. Yeah. Yeah. 

Lindsay (34:06.798)

Okay, and then someone came and got you from there. 

Lindsay (34:09.104)

And I know you just recently had a surgery, is that from this injury? Okay. 

Michele (34:14.028)

Yeah, yeah, they 

Michele (34:15.373)

had to reattach surgeries interesting in itself. then they, because it's completely severed or mine was, which is very, very rare and unusual because it's such a big and strong tendon. They had to drill three holes in the kneecap and then attach bolts to attach, pull down the tendon and attach it to the kneecap. So. 

Lindsay (34:41.208)

Yeah, sounds great. Sounds awful. 

Michele (34:43.444)

Yeah, you've had your fair share of musculoskeletal surgery, so yeah, I'm now walking in your shoes. 

Lindsay (34:48.236)

Mm 

Lindsay (34:50.986)

Yeah, mine was a little smaller, but the tendons, the three tendons in my ankle were, the, they were attached to the piece of bone that was no longer attached to my ankle. And so I have two of those, I have two pieces of metal with bolts in there that they attached the ligament to. So I guess that's, not tendons, ligaments. I guess that's how, how they do it. So yours is just a much larger version of, of what I had. 

Michele (34:52.705)

Yes. 

Lindsay (35:20.088)

Do you feel, how does it feel now? 

Michele (35:20.127)

different. 

Michele (35:24.248)

So we're about day five after surgery. I've worn a full leg brace that's fully locked out so I can't bend it at all. But I think we're, I've had many more amazing angels. So I've kept a gratitude blog since it all started. I'm doing 30 days of gratitude blog just to keep my brain on the right side, the positive side, because these things can send you spinning. 

Lindsay (35:27.576)

Mm -hmm. 

Lindsay (35:32.425)

Can't tell. 

Michele (35:52.266)

in a different direction if you're not, if you don't take charge. We have choices of how we react so this is one of the choices I've made. 

Lindsay (35:57.915)

Absolutely. 

Lindsay (36:02.574)

That's an excellent choice to make. think I had a 18 month journey to get anyone to agree to operate. and then once they did operate, they were like, well, wow, that I can see why that hurt. Like, okay, I've been saying this, but it's one of those things where, and I'm sure you experienced this a lot. If the doctor's comparing you across their patients, 

Michele (36:19.693)

Yeah. 

Lindsay (36:31.726)

they don't necessarily, when you're saying I can't even ride my bike 20 miles without pain, they hear that you're riding your bike 20 miles and they have so many patients that aren't even moving at all. They're like, that seems, I'm like, no, you don't, you don't understand. Like that's not what a ride is to me or, you know, so it took a little while. but I have to say that they can do amazing things. I mean, it's attached and it's like it, 

Lindsay (37:01.526)

It's like it was never not attached or they were never not attached. You know, you can feel it in there. 

Michele (37:04.14)

That's Million mountains waking up 

Michele (37:07.809)

from the storm and doing great. 

Lindsay (37:10.594)

Trying to, yep, running is still a little awkward, but it's not from the ankle. You know what it's from is the overcompensation. 

Michele (37:19.744)

So I'm starting with my one -on -one trainer this week to try and get on top of upper body and core work because it's so important. And then I heard that the NFL guys have very similar injuries to what I do and they spend like three hours in rehab. So my takeaway for the listeners is advocate, advocate, advocate. 

Lindsay (37:32.461)

Mm 

Lindsay (37:38.67)

Mm -hmm. 

Lindsay (37:43.773)

Michele (37:48.608)

for yourself. Find people who will take you seriously. If you're an everyday athlete, 

Michele (37:55.198)

advocate this is my normal, this is what I like to do, this is what this is quality of life and I think when you talk about quality of life to doctors they need to listen, they tend to listen more because it's an important term and so being in healthcare, even being in healthcare it was initially confusing for me to when I returned to California 

Lindsay (37:58.839)

Mm 

Michele (38:21.82)

navigate the initial steps, the best steps of healthcare. But if listeners can't advocate for themselves, then find somebody who will advocate or will listen to them. It is so important in our healthcare system in the US. So that is my passionate takeaway for the listeners, if I may share that. 

Lindsay (38:45.902)

Yes, absolutely and I appreciate that because that what I didn't say when I was saying about my 18 months was that I didn't do something like a gratitude journal and I got deeper, deeper, deeper into sort of this pit of despair because doing sports and hanging out with my team and exercising and just whatever that looks like in any given moment is a really key part of my mental health, mental, emotional health because like for all the reasons you said it's social, it's 

Lindsay (39:15.88)

you're moving your body, you need these quadrants to be a healthy person. And I was lacking that. And so it wasn't like, I just can't go to the gym. was like, I don't, I'm not seeing my friends. My partner is an avid cyclist. I don't, I don't get to spend time with him doing that. I don't get to be on my team. And so I just kind of went down into this pit and, and when I finally got help was when I demanded another, you know, 

Lindsay (39:45.622)

a new doctor, I want another opinion and that doctor I said to him, this is ruining my quality of life. I have mental health challenges. You can look at my chart and see those and I'm telling you this is a really important for me. And he said, well, I might not be able to fix it with surgery, but I can try. And I said, are you gonna make it worse? And he said, no. And I said, then do it. And he did it. He did a beautiful job. He was a young guy named. 

Lindsay (40:14.05)

Dr. Dallas Valerio, he's amazing. Dr. Dallas sounds like a doctor from a soap opera and he was really handsome, but he did a great job. But it's like you're saying, advocating for myself, it took me a while to ramp up to that to realize, they're not hearing me, they're not gonna just get it. And then when I just went in strong, it was like, this is more than just like I wanna. 

Lindsay (40:40.942)

ride my bike or something they that's when they took care of it and yeah super important super assume okay so 35 miles on on the washington and did i hear you say you did moab before but didn't but then why but you did washington too that time or that 

Michele (41:00.024)

Yeah, I think in 2020 I did Moab 240 successfully. And then in 2021 I tried Bigfoot and I got about 180 miles and ended up helping another guy who was very disoriented and didn't come back and stay in my lane necessarily. I just helped him. Yeah. And then ran out of time and things like that. So Bigfoot's the one that's waiting for me out of the three. 

Lindsay (41:29.044)

huh. 

Michele (41:30.048)

plan to also go back and give back. So even though I can't do Moab this year as planned, I will go back and volunteer with the medical crew. And so they're okay with me coming out on crutches and putting me with an able -bodied person. And there's so many logistics and different pieces. And yeah, one of the medics I chatted with when this happened, 

Lindsay (41:34.327)

Mm -hmm. 

Lindsay (41:44.852)

good. 

Lindsay (41:51.342)

Hahaha. 

Lindsay (41:56.366)

Mm 

Michele (41:59.596)

we're going to room together and we'll work together and Prime will start working so I can do some of the background stuff beforehand. So she knows what I can do and then I'll just be her right -hand person and she can do the running around stuff. So that'll be fun. And that's a great way, know, along with the gratitude journal, if your dreams are dashed, it's about getting a different perspective and finding a way, a recipe to make lemonade out of lemons. 

Lindsay (42:03.058)

Lindsay (42:10.67)

Wow. 

Michele (42:27.498)

I worked for many years and still do with kids with cancer. And to see how they and their families make lemonade out of lemons is incredible and a privilege and an honor. so it just, there's always a good side to something. sometimes it's finding the diamonds in the dust and there's a lot of dust and we just need to find the diamonds. 

Lindsay (42:27.682)

Yeah. 

Lindsay (42:47.918)

Mm -hmm. 

Michele (42:55.776)

And that came from a military guy who helped me pace when I did a month -long triathlon. 

Lindsay (43:01.09)

Wow. 

Lindsay (43:03.191)

Well, that's, yeah, that's good point. And I think that, you know, you have these skills, the medical skills. So that's really, you know, you really can give back in a meaningful way. And it's interesting to me that you helped a guy in the Bigfoot the first year and then someone helped you in the next year. And what a nice community that is the Ultra. Yeah. 

Michele (43:22.7)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's an amazing community. And there really 

Michele (43:28.738)

is. And especially the destination trail run community, because they just do, they've been doing this and they don't want anyone to die or hurt themselves significantly, but they're very challenging events. And it is about interdependence. Yes, you have to show up prepared and having trained and done all the right and done your homework. But then you're also helping one another and it's 

Lindsay (43:54.382)

Destination Trail Races always sends me stuff. always lands in my inbox and I look at it and go, that's so nice for some people. Lucky them. Okay. That would be good, 30, 40 miles. I do have two things I want to do. I want to do, there's one here in Tahoe at North Star. 

Michele (43:58.103)

with 

Michele (44:01.464)

They do do 20 miles. They do 20 miles in the Orcas in Seattle, Washington. So it doesn't all have to be 200. And they do 40 miles. So you can start off small. Yeah. Yeah. 

Michele (44:18.988)

Mm. 

Lindsay (44:25.419)

and it's a 50k and So this is where we like to stay when we come to Tahoe's North Star We come all summer because we can ride and we can ride our gravel bikes mountain bikes and so they have a nice 50k a lot of climbing in it. So this is one I have on my list to do and then I Want to do the trans rocky run because that's a little bit different because you get to stay 

Michele (44:28.696)

Mm 

Lindsay (44:52.852)

sleep a full night each night, know, it's a stage race or I'm just going to do it as a challenge to try to finish. So that's on my list too. That's probably as close as I'm going to get to doing anything ultra like, but 

Michele (45:03.616)

Yeah, that's the t -shirt I'm wearing is Grand to Grand, which was a six day stage race from the North Rim of the Grand Canyon to Grand Staircase Escalante in Utah. And that was an amazing, and it's six days and you go through some coral pink sand dunes. It's incredible. And Jenna was there for me to meet me at the end of that. Also incredible. Yeah. 

Lindsay (45:08.669)

yeah. 

Lindsay (45:18.936)

Wow. 

Lindsay (45:30.808)

That sounds awesome. That 

Lindsay (45:32.224)

sounds really beautiful. Okay, well, we are gonna wrap up soon. What else do you have to say? Anything for the listeners or just in general? 

Michele (45:43.448)

I think, you know, it's different strokes for different folks just because don't be intimidated by 200 miles. Start off small, start off... 

Michele (45:55.896)

doing something and then doubling that something. So if it's walking around the block, walk one side of the block, run two sides of the block. If you can't then whatever you do, if you want to start running double, what I tell people is do a walk run, but whatever you walk, you double the run. So 10 steps, then run 20 steps. And it can be as short as 10 and it can be as short as steps, you know, and then you build up to 30 seconds of walk. 

Michele (46:24.856)

walking and 60 seconds of running so your body gets used to resetting and that's a time when you're walking you always walk intentionally you don't just amble or you be hold a strong cord be intentional about that which you have control over 

Lindsay (46:44.238)

walk run is something I'm embracing right now myself because like I said I started running back again and then the tendonitis in my other not the same one that I had surgery on the other Achilles came back that's something I've dealt with for a long time and I realized I'm overcompensating and blah blah blah so now I'm back to you know 

Lindsay (47:07.264)

run for two minutes and then I'm walking for two run for two walk for two and I'm gonna extend that out a little bit as soon as I can but you're right and if you 

Michele (47:15.372)

You're not allowed to 

Michele (47:16.342)

extend it until you've done your stretch and strength. So there will be a phone call later on today. 

Lindsay (47:19.734)

Yes. 

Lindsay (47:21.159)

Well, I appreciate that, Michelle, and I appreciate you coming on the show, spending time with us. I'm going to put some information about Michelle in the show notes so that you can follow her and see what she's doing, what she's up to. And yeah, thanks for listening to this show, everybody, and we will see you next week. Bye. 

Michele (47:47.288)

Bye you all, thank you.